So the post that you all have been waiting for!
If you used PayPal to buy your product from Red Rock Ordnance, Charles Clifton, et. al. you may or may not have noticed that it, most likely, went into an account for TacOut. TacOut is another shell company of Charles Clifton and his wife Barbara (read previous posts to know that TacOut is part of this shell group).
Now for the fun part. PayPal limited the accounts of Charles Clifton (under all of its accounts). This is because Chic (Charles Clifton) and crew removed the money before shipping your product. Charles Clifton got notice from PayPal, and called them up to schmooze them. This means he was able to remove your money, and now guess who is on the line. That is right folks, PayPal allowed them to remove the money before shipping your product, which is against their own Terms of Service (TOS).
In the meantime, Red Rock Ordnance moved to using a merchant gateway through Wells Fargo, in an effort to bypass PayPal’s restrictions on how much money they could remove. It was very efficient that WellsFargo dumped your credit card payments directly into their bank account. That might be something for you to look into. Though at last comment, this wasn’t good enough because they throttled how much money be processed in a day, why? Because WellsFargo is on the line when they don’t ship and don’t refund!
PayPal is now liable to pay you back. I am sure if you subpoenaed those accounts, you would see exactly what I am talking about. Any company who went against their own TOS, and against the law, is liable to recover your funds, even it it be out of their pockets. Don’t forget that according to PayPal, selling gun parts is against their TOS in the first place.
For the rest of you, please note that the only way you are going to recoup your money is through law enforcement. We will keep you updated on this blog of any federal criminal charges, as well as any civil claims that you might want to join.
Please, can you follow us at https://twitter.com/RedRockOrdFraud and https://www.facebook.com/RedRockOrdnanceFraud in an effort to get this information out. Spread the word so that we can help you!
We will be working to get you the names of the banking and PayPal accounts. Hopefully you can recoup something!
redrockordfraud 
i would like to be updated please as i have not recieved my product…but i have talked to them several times…Joseph Vender
shokNah@aol.com
Thanks guys for all the hard work you’re putting into this. I find it very shameful that someone would go to such great lengths to scam people out of their hard working money. Especially our servicemen.
Thank you, Steve. We hope that, by exposing this fraud, we can make people more aware in the future how to avoid losing good money after bad.
It took me several emails and 2 phone calls to Paypal to get my dispute escalated to a “claim”. 10 days from now, if RRO doesnt respond, I am told I will receive a refund.. Here’s hoping. Be persistent but polite and be sure to thow in “long time customer” “Fraud” and the fact that they violated PayPal’s TOS.
I just called PayPal and got my refund in less than 2 minutes. I purchased two BCGs on March 7th.
Just called paypal and reversed the dispute and upgraded to a “claim” if there is no answer from RedRock, the money will be refunded to my account in 10 days.
I would like to be kept update as well. I paid for 2 via PayPal(both were scheduled for the first week of April) I haven’t heard anything back from them after numerous emails
Contact PayPal via telephone and escalate, and then dispute claiming fraud and that the product has not shipped. Provide them with case number 13-S-002525 with the Bastrop County Sheriff in Texas.
Paypal kindly handled my claim even though it was beyond their 45-day requirement. Today was the eleventh day since they attempted to contact RRO and the refund appeared in my account! Thanks for the info and encouragement to give up on RRO. I hate to swallow my pride and admit I’ve been duped but sometimes it happens that way. Good luck to everyone on here!
Can anyone provide a link the section of Pay-Pal’s Terms of Service that shows where it talks about them releasing your money prior to shipment and there policy against selling gun parts? Im having a hard time finding it.
You have to look at the merchant agreements.
https://cms.paypal.com/ca/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/CEAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US Section 1. Association Rules
Specifically this:
Present Transactions within 30 Business Days. Merchant agrees that a debit transaction shall not be presented until after the goods are shipped, or services provided, unless, at the time of the transaction, the cardholder agrees to a properly disclosed delayed delivery of the goods or services. Merchant agrees that when it receives authorisation for delayed presentment, the words “Delayed Presentment” or something substantially similar must be disclosed to the cardholder.
https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/ua/merchservices-full
Specifically:
10.2(b)(1) and 10.2(b))(ii)
Also, PayPal did, at one time, limit and block the funds in the account because product was not being shipped. That is why there was a race to set up the Wells Fargo Merchant Gateway. In the meantime, Clifton was able to sweet talk someone into releasing more and more funds to him until the account became drained.
I got refused from PayPal 3 times. Then I asked for a dispute manager. I used the language from this post. In 30 seconds done cash back in my account. Thank you VERY much! I almost quit.
Jim
I would like to know your exactly what you said. I just spoke to a escalation manager and they absolutely refuse to help me since I am over 45 days. The went as far as creating a case for me, and the escalation manager later told me that it “automatically closed” since I was passed the 45 day mark. They said they can assure me that anyone over 45 days would have not received any funds back. I tried to provide them with case number 13-S-002525 from the comments above and they do not have a reference of this. Now I’m just sitting here pissed and I’m out $187.35 for 1 x bcg not received.
Call PayPal and escalate to a claim. Use case # and this website. Also there TOS info. I did this and am getting a refund. They are now I believe according to the women I spoke to filing charges or investigating.
Did anyone use your Debit/CC card and use Paypal to facilitate the transaction? I have a Paypal account but used a different card to make this purchase. I have a Paypal Receipt No. but they still tell me because I’m passed my 45 day window there is nothing they can do. My purchase was made on March 7th for 1 x BCG. I’m still filing an affidavit with my bank but even then they cannot guarantee a refund either. Any advice here?
If you tell PayPal, after you escalate, that they went against their own terms of service by giving money to the seller without the product being shipped, and that it was fraud, they should open a claim.
I said exactly that to the first person I spoke with, they created case # PP-002-398-118-xxx. I then spoke to the escalation manager and that’s when she informed me my case was automatically closed because it exceeded over 45 days. I mentioned they violated their own TOS and she still said there’s nothing they can do and I’m over 45 days. Is there any kind of internal case number on Paypal’s end that documents all this? I need something to reference too otherwise I’m just screwed.
Call and get someone else. Just keep trying. It is worth a few calls to get your money back.
Just an update on my behalf. I kept calling Paypal and spoke to another manager. They are fully aware of the multiple disputes open against this merchant (Red Rock). He told me that even though I’m outside of the 45 day window for Paypal and outside of the banks window of 60 days that I still have 180 days regardless to resolve a fraudulent claim which is backed by a debit non-ACH transaction. I convinced my bank to file a charge back to Paypal (referencing my PP case number) regardless. My bank submitted the paperwork and Paypal returned the funds within 5 days. Hope this helps. Thanks again for putting this website together!
I would like to report that my attempts in getting my money back from PayPal has not gone as well as some of you. I have called and spoke with 4-5 different people. They are really pushing the FACT that i am past the 45 day mark. This weekend I spoke with a supervisor,told them that RRO is under investigation, that have gone completely BLACK OUT, I have made many attempts to call and the number is not working,I gave them the Bastrop County Sheriffs case #, and even gave them this web site as a reference !!! WTF more is needed. I explained that they were in violation of there own policies, releasing the funds before shipping information. I was instructed that if this was a EBAY purchase then yes, but because the account that RRO set up, they can receive the funds right away with out shipping information. I was told to contact my credit card company and file a claim and that they would work with them but till then they would not refund my money.
SO …… I’ve contacted the BCS, my CC and waiting to hear back.
They must really be cracking down. Fingers crossed.
Just got off the phone with PP. 1st time they referred me back to my bank (USAA) who couldn’t do anything since their window is 60 days. Called again, talked to someone different. She brought up the 45 days, but I pleaded my case about being a LONG time PP member and how they violated the TOS and no one can contact RRO. She put me on hold for a bit and came back on to tell me they will refund the charge. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that I’ll see it in 24-72 hours! Thanks to you guys here!
I had no luck with Paypal but was able to start dispute through my CC used with Paypal after explaining the delayed shipping issue, so we will have to see where that goes. On the upside, ordered a BCG from Rubber City Armory on Saturday and it arrived today. It is the black nitride version and it appears to be a quality piece. Thanks to guys that write this blog, I feel really stupid having been scammed on this deal.
It took two calls but pay pal re opened the dispute. Just tell them the 45 day dispute period expired before the promised shipping date and you should be good. It may take several people. So glad I found this site, I was about to chalk it up as a loss!
I entered a dispute with PayPal, but they have denied it. Some of you must be getting different people than I, but they are standing firm on the 45 day dispute period in spite of bringing up the fraud case #, the violation of TOS (I haven’t been able find where it says selling firearm parts is a violation), and being a long time customer. I guess I’m just screwed.
Took an email & 2 phone calls to PayPal, and I must have gotten a sympathetic person as she said she’ll make an exception & processed the claim. I really had to talk up the Atty Gen thing and ‘ran away w/ 1000s of people’s money’.